>>“Do you know of any churches where the elders willingly present themselves before the church on a regular basis”
yes I have met good functioning elders and bad ones as well..
As to “in love submit one to another”…
According to my reading of the scriptures the term Pastor is always plural, not singular, meaning there are too be many pastors in any local church, and pastors also equally, mutally do have to submit to the gifted elders, who are the apostles- missionaries and prophets- all appointed by God as his spokesman – the NT Greek verb is continually present- meaning God continues to give these men ( or women – such as Junia note worthy amongst the apostles) unto the church now as well , but today most evangelical pastors tend to deny the existance of these God ordained, given offices even today, even firstly because they themselves are rebels, those who wrongfully refuse to submit to other’s for always submission is mutal- meaning reciprocal.. and also do note this it is still voluntarily, unenforceable.. Dictatorial pastors tend to be ungoldy persons still.
(Gal 5:19 KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Deu 31:27 KJV) For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
I heard firsthand one teenager saying to another teenager , “I cannot trust you, you lie to me all the time” and this next had made me reflect upon the reality that the average person lies 3 times in every ten minutes of conversation, and it also reminded me with my past years of undeniable dealing with Bell related to my internet download problems, they too had lied to me all the time, by not admitting the truth first that there was a problem, nor next honestly admitting the cause of the problem. It seems that spin doctoring, misleading, lying to others is a very major part of not just the lawyers, used car salesmen, but a regular part of the sales, advertising, corporate way of doing business with consumers these days Canada wide now as well. http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/why-many-businesses-fail/
It seems also that lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, pornography, alcoholism, slander, gossiping, etc., is something that too many pastors also cannot give up on these days too. https://postedat.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/a-hireling-in-an-evangelical-church/
Now it was interesting I had met this really crooked head elder and head deacon in a Baptist church, not just in the Pentecostal churches, where there too their elders and deacons, tend to be pretentious ones ( for when was the last time you saw an elder giving food, money to the poor persons in the church as was done in the book of Acts?) .. even such as the one who was an elder and owned a bar that served alcohol of all things, and who borrowed money from others in the church for his business and then refused to pay it back too, he also next ran to be a local politicans but lost now.. .. and told me if I come to his church he would call the police against me, but the same bad church I next rather had helped to close down permanently , for I had the federal government remove their tax exempt license after I had exposed in writing to news editors, elected officials too their much too many unacceptable abuses, money thefts, slanders, etc.,
Now a Baptist pastor had cheated, for he had short circuited the elders, deacons church selection process, he had the nominating committee first, before any selection submit the names to him for his prior approval of their supposedly spiritual qualifications and he thus by thes emans had elected his bad friends.. one Sunday evening as I was leaving the church and shaking hands with the pastor, he unexpectedly said to me ” this is my church and if you do not like it get out”.. shocked and surprised I said to the pastor if I have offended you let me meet you now this week Tuesday night and you can bring any two witnesses you want as well and we can discuss the matter. So he agreed and I knew that he would bring the head elder and the head deacons.. as I walked into the pastor’s office on Tuesday day night, the founding church pastor said immediately to me wipe the smirk of your face.. so I immediately said.. hey pastor let us also now make this quick, “Did you or did you not say to me this is my church and if you do not like it get out?” And you should have seen the shock on the deacon and elder’s faces. The pastor seeing this too next said you cannot hear any charges from this man for I am a senior and if you listen to him I will resign. I said “Pastor if you want to resign, do so, but cut of the emotional black main and answer the question”.. he resigned instead, and became a life insurance salesman rather next..
But now I still had a problem with the crooked head elder of South Calgary Community Church so I tried to first talk to him about his immoral acts and lack of spirituality, he admitted to me that he had no time to read the Bible even.. but it was useless to talk to him for he laughed me off. So next the elder came to see me and said “you know when you told everyone about my lack of spirituality it did not bother me, it was your word against mine, but when you next had put it in writing to all to see it hurt”.. and I said back to him.. “is that what it takes to cause you to rightfully repent?” seems people tend to believe the truth only if it is in wring these days.. and ever since that day I have also next been posting unacceptable, unrepented of sins of many, many a bad pastors and elder on the net but few of them next repented, less than 5 percent next, some of them even moved rather out of town instead.. and many were rightfully fired next. The next few churches I went to now were not any better..
(Gal 6:1 KJV) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2 KJV) Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
(Gal 6:3 KJV) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
(Gal 6:4 KJV) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
(Gal 6:5 KJV) For every man shall bear his own burden.
(Gal 6:7 KJV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
(Gal 6:8 KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
(Gal 6:9 KJV) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Gal 6:10 KJV) As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
(Lev 19:17 KJV) Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
(Psa 104:7 KJV) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
(Prov 9:8 KJV) Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
(Prov 13:1 KJV) A wise son heareth his father’s instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
(Prov 24:25 KJV) But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
(Prov 27:5 KJV) Open rebuke is better than secret love.
(Eccl 7:5 KJV) It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.
(Isa 66:15 KJV) For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
(Jer 15:15 KJV) O LORD, thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for thy sake I have suffered rebuke.
(Luke 17:3 KJV) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
(Phil 2:15 KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
(1 Tim 5:1 KJV) Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
(1 Tim 5:20 KJV) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
(2 Tim 4:2 KJV) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
(Titus 1:13 KJV) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
(Titus 2:15 KJV) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
(Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Now can a bad pastor rightfully fire a good or bad deacon, meaning often a non functioningg , pretentious elder?
Bad people try to do many things.. if others let them do it as well..
Bad pastors, bad elders continue to exist cause likely the congregation is bad too. (Jer 5:31 KJV) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
I have yet to see a Bible verse saying the local church is solely to be run by one man, one pastor too.. for that matter! and not the elders of that Church..
We all do even need to seriously know, differentiate between how God now deals with the wicked, those persons deliberately disobedient to him, he God does not go along with them for sure .. God’s grace of forgiveness even does not extend to everyone..
and next the righteous those people who put their trust in him.. God is merciful, kind to them, but not all professing Christians now are righteous for sure as well.
Here also is what I know for sure in Canada proper policing, management , supervision human rights commissions are a real fact of life, society, in schools, life, in churches, governments, commerce, institutions, civil and public services, professional services too, and elsewhere, even on the net, for you will always have those 30 percent at least of the persons who will try to cheat, lie , steal, bend the rules, falsely believe they are above the laws, Self regulation alone is too often pretentious, farcical, often not applied as well. That applies especially to the professionals, civil and public services, police, municipalities, politicians now as well..
I was really, really surprised as to how many persons lie, are being lied to in life, in churches..
(Josh 22:22 KJV) The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
(1 Sam 15:23 KJV) For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
(Prov 17:11 KJV) An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
(Jer 28:16 KJV) Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.
(Jer 29:32 KJV) Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught rebellion against the LORD.
(Jer 6:27 KJV) I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way. 28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters. 29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away. 30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
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